MORE AWT RACES!!

[hobbes]

Wednesday, May 29, 2002 RACING Switch to Sha Tin all part of dirty job
ALAN AITKEN
The Jockey Club says that next Wednesday's Happy Valley meeting has been transferred to Sha Tin due to concerns about the surface at the city course.
And the move could foreshadow a surprise turn towards more lower-grade all-weather racing at this time next season to assist the turf tracks in their recovery from race meetings, leading to the abolition of the widely-criticised C+3 courses at both Happy Valley and Sha Tin.
Winfried Engelbrecht-Bresges, the Club's director of racing, said Happy Valley's condition had deteriorated due to unusual weather patterns affecting the turf growth at the course this month and that rain during recent meetings had damaged the surface more than usual.
"Happy Valley is a course which will always have a certain amount of bias, however we have been concerned at the extent of bias there recently," he said. "But so that we don't overtax Sha Tin, the meeting next week will be altered to consist of five all-weather and two turf races."
The final race had to be abandoned at last week's Valley meeting after the jockeys complained about the condition of the track. But the switch to a dirt-dominated Sha Tin fixture is likely to upset punters - with betting figures showing a discernible antipathy towards dirt racing - as well as owners and trainers whose horses have been aimed at the Valley meeting.
The Jockey Club has also appeared unconvinced by the merits of dirt racing, but Engelbrecht-Bresges indicated that its attitude was changing. "This is something we may have to look more at next season around this time of year. While we have a commitment to world-class turf racing and it is not our intention to run a lot of all-weather racing, it may be necessary to have more mixed meetings with more lower-class dirt races at certain times," he said.
"By conducting more mixed meetings, we can give the turf tracks a little more rest for recovery. If we can do that, the C+3 courses may no longer be necessary."
Engelbrecht-Bresges said the public had also complained about having trouble getting a hold on the dirt form with so few races run on the surface. "We don't propose to run better-class races on dirt, but for bread-and-butter meetings it will suit our tracks better and will also give the punters a better guide to the form."
i cannot remember when they did not have races on the c+3 course at shatin and they have been around sometime at HV also. i was not aware of any problems with the c+3 at SH and the bias at HV is known to all so the main problem seems to be related to the extreme weather conditions.
anyway if they ditch those courses in favour of more AWT races i can live with that but PLEASE don't mix the meetings. a return to the old 'pure' AWT meetings would make me far happier than mixed meetings.

[masun]

The problem with more AWT races is that if they continue to be lower-class affairs, people will treat AWT days as off days. OTOH, higher-class dirt races are even more unpredictable because even fewer races have been run. For all the problems with HV C+ 3, some punters positively look forward to these meetings because they feel that the bias makes it easier to pick the winners.

[Scarper]

There is so little grass on the Sandmesh tracks that it would make little difference to racing on the dirt track. I havent seen the HV track look so bad in a long time. And tonight at Sha tin the sand is being kicked everywhere just like a dirt track.
I agree that the low class races on the dirt that are full of older / cripple horses that need the sting out of the ground to race at all isnt what you want to bet on.
The dirt itself also makes the races look unattractive too, horses never fly home and more often than not the race is over by the start of the home staright with a few horses just hanging on to the line, while the rest just want to get home back to the stables for a wash down. The lack of exctitement in the home straigh doent appeal. i wonder if sand or another dirt mix would be easier going and allow for a bit more competition in the straight???
IF the JC continue trying to increase the number of races, dirt racing may be the only option other than building a new track (what happened to that idea??)

[corkey boy]

Its just one of those things. If it wasn't for those storms the other week no one would be worrying too much.
Dirt racing is less appealing I agree but the jockey club are left with few options with the grass tracks in such condition.

[imaufo]

I like the dirt racing and I wont be at all unhappy to see more of it. If they have heaps it will be easier to follow.

[Seabiscuit]

It is good to see that you folk in Hong Kong are finally waking up to the virtues of dirt racing. I knew you would come round to the USA point of view eventually.
Dirt tracks are much better if you want less bias. They are not bias free but you get less of it. In the USA dirt tracks are used 5 times per week but I would say have less bias than grass tracks used once per week in other parts of the world. If HK is still only going to have 2 meetings per week you will almost never see bias except that caused by track design (Happy Valley).
They might be unattractive now but you will get used to them if you used them all the time. Just build a nice flower bed on the infield and it helps heaps.
The races might seem less competitive but this is a relative thing and you will get used to the 10 length wins. But if you want really competitive racing just run 350 yard quarter horse races to finish off the program. They all hit the line locked together. They do this at lesser tracks like Evangeline Downs and Delta Downs in the USA and everyone loves it there.
As for the complaint about mixed programs, I say variety is the spice of life. They run mixed programs in the USA and Japan all the time and nobody ever complains. I would really mix things up by running races over widely varying distances and then adding the quarter horses. Now things are getting really spicy.
If you are dead against mixed programs just rip up all the turf tracks and have complete dirt racing. Godolphin and Japan will still come to International day and the USA will now take interest as an added bonus. The Aussie trainers will still turn up as they won't realise that dirt is totally different to grass. The end result = net positive for International Day as the USA will come too.
My final word of advice is don't be scared of change. If it is a good idea to change the status quo then embrace that change.

[masun]

The problem with dirt racing is that very few if any owners will buy a horse because of its dirt abilities. So the quality of the dirt races here is not very high. This is not helped by the fact that, thanks to the tech stock boom, American bred horses were relatively more expensive in the last few years. Not that many American bred horses have been imported into HK recently. So more dirt races will only mean more low quality races. It will take a lot more dirt races to convince the owners to import good dirt horses, and this is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

[Pittsburghphil]

Masun. sorry to rain on your parade but a check of last week-end's two griffin races shows a predominance of US breeding. It is worth remembering that a large number of AUS and NZ bred horses involve US sires or dams - and that's not all. e.g. Shanghai Friend, bred in Ireland is by Danehill (USA) out of a US bred dam - and there are stacks of others in those two races alone. The problem is not in the breeding - our horse population is probably getting stronger in dirt ability every year - it is in the perception. The media talk down dirt racing all the time. Also the Jockey Club has never really made the most of it because it has always been seen as simply a method of resting the grass tracks (as is the case now) rather than a legitimate form of HK racing. And, for the professionals, they don't have enough of it (dirt racing)to form an accurate model.

[masun]

Masun. sorry to rain on your parade
Always good to read your words of wisdom, Pittsburghphil! I just hope that you'll post more often since we can learn much from you.

[jack]

There's plenty of horses here with AWT-suitable pedigrees and owners are getting the same stakes-money whether they win on the grass or dirt. And this is good money when you compare to the rest of the world.

[shadey]

dirt racing is unnatural for the horse. no horse can make up ground on the dirt because of the kickback and for some reason you will never get a horse like montjeu on the dirt where he can canter past them. the most incredible horses are always on grass.
whatsmore the horses on dirt are so inconsistent. look at fushaici pegasus, he only won the kentucky derby and that was it. what about tiznow, after that win against giant's causeway in the breeders cup he showed nothing for the whole year until the next breeder's cup. look at hk dirt racing, you never see a horse win back to back.
although i agree it can add variety. i dont think its the best form of racing.

[woopin]

I think we have to realize that they would race on the streets surrounding the course to generate turnover.The bottom line is the turnover..If people don't want dirt racing the way to show it is simply to stop supporting it through the tote.If they get desperate how about making each grass race into,say 3 betting events...Stage every race over 2400m and pay on 1.2.3. at the post the first time around...1.2.3. at the 1200m mark and of course at the finish.Sure would ensure proper paced races and perhaps a bonus if a horse were to win all 3 sections.....Think of the exotics they coul conjure up...I'll have to go .. the mind is over boggling. :eek: :eek:

[Seabiscuit]

I hate to disagree with people believe me. But when people say things that are untrue I have to speak up.
Shadey it is simply not true that dirt is unnatural. Horses have run on dirt or sand in Arabia for thousands of years. It is only that the Brits and Europeans race mainly on grass that that is seen as the "natural" surface as they colonised most of the world.
It is not true that horses are inconsistent on the dirt. Tiznow did not do nothing between Breeders Cups. He won a G2 race first up after beating Giant's Causeway, then ran 2nd in a G2 then won the Grade 1 Santa Anita Hcp. He was spelled and then ran third in a G1 and third in a G2 before winning the BC Classic two years in a row. So Tiznow won a G1, a G2 and never finished worse than 3rd in G1 or G2 between Breeders Cups. You can hardly say he did nothing.
I remember seeing Montjeu doing lots of cantering on grass in the BC Turf of 2000 - at the back of the pack!
"The most incredible horses are always on grass" - this is a rash generalization if ever I heard one. Secretariat, the horse who won a Grade 1 by 31 lengths, did it on dirt and raced almost his entire career on dirt. He is arguably the greatest horse who ever lived. Countless other American champs raced all their lives on dirt.
Secretariat won 16 races out of 21, Seattle Slew 14 out of 17, Spectacular Bid 26 out of 30 starts all mostly on dirt. In recent times there probably has not been a more consistent big race horse than Cigar who won 16 in a row all on dirt (1994-1996).
Fusaichi Pegasus was a bit inconsistent at the highest level but that was just him. You cannot say all dirt horses are inconsistent on the basis of one horse.
You probably have problems in HK because as other people have indicated the HKJC don't give dirt racing a proper go. If you rip up all your grass tracks and just have dirt racing I am sure horses will start winning consecutive races. Just remember you will have less bias. And if you don't like Happy Valley you can cancel it and run all your races at Shatin. Although I imagine Happy Valley adds some variety to HK racing.

[Scarper]

dirt racing is unnatural for the horse. no horse can make up ground on the dirt because of the kickback
i agree that the kickback has an effect but i also beleive the going is something equivalant to yeilding or worse on the sandmesh tracks, and results in horses being too tired to put in decent final 400's. so we get the big margins and dull finishes, as we do in the wet often. Dirt racing in all about early sectional whereas the grass racing is more often uniform throughout....maybe ???
As for letting the tote do the decision making - does anyone have figures of dirt T/O vs Grass sandmesh ?? i dont think the t/o is all that much less for a similar class race on the grass. maybe 10% ??? this could easily be explained by the pros not liking the dirt, but the general public could be betting away quite happily ???
[ June 02, 2002: Message edited by: Scarper ]

[Scarper]

The jockey club should conduct a survey or study to find out what people want from their 'racing product'.
I cant ever remember them doing anything like this but in a competetive market (which they are in now despite having a llocal monoply) they would be crazy not to listen to thier customers.
Im sure ken martius of the lowans booklet would love to confirm that punters are in no way interested in promotional fluffy toys and keyrings!

[shadey]

seabiscuit i think your whole argument is rather one sided to american racing. ok you probably dont get much european info, but there are a lot of serious horses in europe that can do it on the grass and the dirt. i'm sure you remember sakhee and giant's causeway who were practically invincible on the grass in europe last year. but to go down by a SH on a game a world away from them deserves huge amounts of credit.
i cant remember an american horse doing it like that. i refer you to caller one, the highest rated sprinter from america this year in the singapore sprint and he came dead last. how is that possible?
by the way you should check out videos of montjeu or dubai millennium (www.godolphin.com might help)in their prime and i dare you to make those comments about them again. montjeu can literally canter past his rivals. while dubai millennium is so fast he can get a 10L lead from start till finish. in fact jerry bailey, u.s. jockey extrodinaire, after riding him to win by 20L at royal ascot said he was the best thing he ever rode!!
i think your living a bit in the past to bring up all those old horses. to say horseracing hasnt improved since then is a bit of embarassment to the bloodstock industry.
p.s. i dont know if you've ever seen happy valley but its probably one of the most incredible race courses in the world. where else will you get a racecourse in the middle of a city??

[Seabiscuit]

No Shadey, we gets lots of European info. We have to know how horses are going in their prep races for Breeders Cup day (races like the Arc etc).
Sakhee and Giant's Causeway were OK but not good enough to win the world's best race. Sakhee did have a significant bias in his favour his day and still couldn't win over Tiznow.
I never said anything about Dubai Millenium. I have seen his races. Everyone got that free Dubai Millenium CD with his main wins on it. And he did look OK beating up on small fields on the grass. However he did not race for long enough to establish whether or not he was a true champ. That was not his fault but I prefer horses to perform over more starts than Dubai Millenium had.
Montjeu was OK too. Dux of his European class. Not sure if he was a superstar though. Otherwise he would have won the 2000 Breeders Cup Turf.
But I was not arguing about the merits of European horses. I was saying you were going way too far in saying the most incredible horses ALWAYS run on grass. It is simply not true (even Dubai Millenium raced on sand/dirt in Dubai so that shows your statement is untrue as you obviously consider DM to be incredible). The USA has had top horses in the last decade. I just mentioned the best of the bunch to show how wrong your statement was that dirt form is inconsistent. It is not. That was my whole point. Dirt racing is no more consistent or inconsistent than turf. You will get no more or less champs on dirt than turf. It will all even out in the wash.
However if you want tracks that handle wear and tear and have less bias (not no bias but less bias than grass) you should run solely on dirt and turn HK into the dirt racing capital of the world. Like I said you will get greater representation on HK International day. You might even have true G1 racing in HK. Not races like the Champions Mile where the top finishers go to Japan and get thrashed.
I said nothing bad about Happy Valley. Just that if you wanted to rip it up and race just at Shatin you could. If you like Happy Valley then perhaps shut down Shatin and race only at Happy Valley. Or race at both. It does not matter. However I honestly believe that turning HK into an all dirt racing centre will bring HK racing into the 21st century. Turnover might even go up when people see how consistent the form is.

[hobbes]

Seabiscuit are you sure you are american ?? most yanks are not as informed as yourself about the world outside their own borders whereas you display significant knowledge of european racing in addition to HK ( how many of your compatriots would know sfa about HK racing ).
anyway i don't care whether they race on grass ( sandmesh ) or dirt ( all weather track ) so long as they avoid mixed meetings. the mm's were only introduced about 5 yrs ago, i think because the AWT mtgs drew smaller crowds and turnover.

[Seabiscuit]

But Hobbes why are you against mixed meetings? Is it because you get a smaller sample of races on each surface and so it is harder to get a fix on the form for each surface? Japan is always mixed meetings but does have 12 races per meeting. If your concern is getting a fix on the form then perhaps run more races per meeting like Japan. But maybe you have some other concern with mixed meetings???
I think you underestimate Americans, Hobbes. We do care about the outside world. Everyone just assumes we don't. For example every year the American racing industry publishes its annual entitled The American Racing Manual. I have the 2001 edition right here. And inside it has all the major foreign Stks races from around the globe. It lists the top 3 finishers in every major G1 race in each major racing country for the last 30 years. For example in France it lists Criterium De Saint-Cloud G1 2000m 2yo colts and filles, Grand Criterium G1, Grand Prix De Paris G1, Grand Prix De Saint-Cloud G1 etc etc. It even lists the Hong Kong Cup G1 as a major race!! It tells me it was run as the Hong Kong International Cup at 1800m 1990-1998 but is now 2000m. State Taj won in 1994 from River Majesty and Volochine in 1:48.4.
I don't know if the racing annuals from other countries pay as much attention to foreign racing as the American Racing Manual. But we Americans do care about the outside world as our annual shows. It is an unfair reputation we have for being insular.

[hobbes]

It is an unfair reputation we have for being insular.
SB there are exceptions like yourself but the rest of the world may disagree on the last point. how many would buy the annual and how many would give the o/seas stuff more than a passing glance?
re mixed mtgs - not the form per se but you should be able to solve my objection.

[hobbes]

In the age of Globalisation, Americans are extremely insular. I dare say most wouldn't mind putting a wall around the entire country, if it weren't for the fact that they need cheap oil.
http://manila.asiaxpat.com/nightlife/thread.asp?display=68861

[imaufo]

Not ONE mention of the World Cup.
Biggest sporting competition in the World, and nada, zip, nunca, nothing.
Amazingly blinkered vision.
Mawh, whhere's mah buhrger?

[jrb]

Sorry, Seabiscuit, but a few of points need to be made:
1-North America races predominantly on dirt; no other major racing centre races predominantly on dirt; HK, in trending away from dirt racing, is heading toward the mainstream. HK will get more and more international representation if it continue this trend. If the North Americans don't come to the International days because they have no decent turf horses (and let's face it, all the top North American turf horses are recycled from UK/Europe/and even Australasia), then that is the North Americans' loss.
2-Montjeu was a little better than dux of his class (which implies that he was merely the best 3yo of his year). He won the Arc, the wfa championship of Europe, in his 3yo year. He cantered home from horses like Fantastic Light in the King George as a 4yo. Montjeu was most certainly a superstar, and for you to assert that he could not be a superstar because if he were a superstar, he would have won the BC Turf, smacksl of the arrogance/ignorance of North Americans which you decry and deny (as does your assertion that the BC Classic is the world's best race).
3-Dubai Millennium did it on turf and dirt; to characterise him as a horse who beat up on small fields underestimates his ability and achievements. You might as well say that Secretariat beat up on a small field in the Belmont.
4-have you any data to back up your assertion that dirt tracks have "less bias" ? Andy Beyer and many others have written extensively on the subject of bias in dirt tracks.

[Pittsburghphil]

Time Out boys, please! The argument dirt vs grass, Europe vs America, is fruitless and can only result in bad friends. The facts are:
Europe and the US are the world leaders in racing - no question. Horses and jockeys from these regions are far and away better than the Southern Hemisphere. Japan has made giant strides in the past decade but can only be a back-marker compared to Europe and the US.
Charles Darwin would tell you - were he still alive - the the theory of natural selection has ensured that the US has become the home of the dirt horse. The fact is the best dirt horses become the champs and they are then bred from producing.. even better dirt horses.
It's a lot like Darwin's giraffes who, he postulated, developed their long necks simply because those with longer necks were able to reach the leaves they needed to eat to surive and thus got the chance to breed.
The fact is Europe has little interest in dirt racing and the US little interest in turf. Never the twain shall meet!
In Hong Kong we only have interest in dollars and, as I have mentioned before, dollars don't seem to flow so freely when the locals are asked to bet on dirt racing.
As for track bias, Beyer was the self-procliamed guru when he developed a method of "rating" horses on the times they ran. Years later, he then acknowledged that he was a babe in the woods once he met guys who know how to "trip handicap" and understood track bias (yes, those much underrated "video form" guys). Bias is very evident on the various US dirt tracks. In fact, contrary to common belief, bias is rarely a factor on the Sha Tin turf and only at Happy Valley because it is a small, turning track. Small, turning tracks produce rail/pace biases anywhere in the world - especially on dirt.
Many "experts" jump to conclusions about track bias after one or two races (at Sha Tin) when the pattern of races has been solely dictated by tempo - almost always more important then any bias. However, there is consistently more bias on dirt than grass (books by Beyer, Quinn, Quirin, Brohamer et al will back this up).
Please don't keep arguing about the relative abilities of US and European horses - it is almost impossible to compare them because they race under totally different circumstances.
All I know is that Europe produces absolute champions on the grass - no one mentioned Pentre Celebre - and the US the same on the dirt, and SOME, yes SOME, can do it on both surfaces. The jocks - Jerry Bailey, Gary Stevens, Olivier Peslier, Frankie Dettori - all different - all geniuses, and there are plenty more where they came from. And don't tell me any Aussies, Sth Afrecans (deliberately sic) or Kiwis are in the same league.

[shadey]

well said jrb, to say that montjeu and dubai millennium were not good horses because they didnt win the breeders cup or beat up small fields is absurd. they were probably the best two horses the world has ever seen.
seabiscuit what bias did sakhee have? if anything tiznow had all the bias because he's prooven on dirt and didnt have to travel half way round the world. sakhee just came off running in the Arc while also having to shake off a leg injury that plaqued him for most of the season.
dubai millennium raced on grass first, and he then took to dirt. so technically i am right, great horses always run on grass. and in my opinion the most incredible horses ever were dubai and montjeu and they both ran on grass. hence my comment.
on a different note i also cant understand why the US doesnt do more to promote turf racing. they have the cash and the facilities to do so. they can seriously clean up world racing. but the fascination of dirt is really a mystery.
but dirt does provide bias. frankie dettori once said that racing on dirt, it was better to go wide then stop your horse, because you'll never make up the distance again. it just goes to show horses struggle for a turn off foot on the dirt. maybe its all about speed.

[imaufo]

I think you will find that there are plenty of horses in the USA with plenty of kick. It just takes a few races to get to them.
Hong Kong treats dirt racing as an after thought mainly and the horses that go around on the dirt are there because they arnt going so well on the grass ( lets try something different).
I liked Dubai Millenium and his WC win was awesome.... but Secretariat was the best.
Damian Oliver would hold his own anywhere in the world. In fact he ran a very close second to Frankie here in Hong Kong in the Jockeys challenge. Considering that Frankies mounts were probably hand picked aqnd Damian was on scraps, thats not too bad.

[Seabiscuit]

There you go Shadey. imaufo says Secretariat was the best and so do I. The most incredible horses don't always run on grass.
Sakhee came down the outside and off the pace. Significant bias at Belmont that day in favour of such horses. No horse won already racing 1st or 2nd and on the rails in the stretch.
JRB - you say no other major racing centre racing predominantly on dirt. Well Japan race pretty much 50/50 dirt and grass I would say and they have the biggest turnover and prizemoney in the world each year. In the winter in Japan most races are dirt. HK seems to be struggling a little at the moment. People are complaining about the state of tracks, turnover has been going down a bit in recent years, they host poor G1s like the Champions Mile. I just thought I would try to help by suggesting a viable alternative that might solve all 3 problems (ie dirt racing). I would not worry about the mainstream. Sometimes it pays to think outside the square. I think dirt racing would add glamour to HK. Throw in the Quarter Horses and it will really take off again.
The Arc and King George are these days prep races for the BC Classic and BC Turf, nothing more nothing less. If you cannot win the big ones nobody remembers you. Unfortunate.
Why are you attacking me for saying Dubai Millennium looked OK as he beat up on small fields on the grass? I thought I was paying him a compliment and stating a simple fact at the same time. He raced against small fields and he looked OK as he beat them. What is wrong with that? Nothing negative in that. I just added that he did not race for long enough to establish a record that will count him as an all time great.
I have plenty of data to demonstrate that dirt tracks have less bias than turf. I have done detailed form for several countries around the globe. This includes dirt and turf racing. And it is a very simple fact that turf racing has more bias on a percentage basis. Why do you think the USA uses dirt tracks? Their racing style has always been to conduct "meets" where you race continuously for weeks at one place before moving on. In the USA you race 5 days a week on the same track for months or even through the year. You do get bias from time to time but not much and in summer you get virtually none. Try racing on grass 5 days per week for 3 months and see what happens. The track won't last 3 months as grass but will be dirt long before the end. This simple fact that dirt racing can handle 5 days per week racing tells you that if HK had dirt tracks all the time but only for 2 meetings per week then incidence of bias is likely to be reduced.

[cheesebeast]

The Arc and King George are these days prep races for the BC Classic and BC Turf, nothing more nothing less. If you cannot win the big ones nobody remembers you. Unfortunate.
is that really so SB. i am more inclined to PP's view that tis difficult to compare. ( esp because of the travelling involved ).
I have plenty of data to demonstrate that dirt tracks have less bias than turf. I have done detailed form for several countries around the globe. This includes dirt and turf racing.
it is the middle sentence that i find fascinating here. most pros i have encountered tend to specialise in their own state or area as not enough time to do more. seriously why have you even tried to do detailed form across several countries ??

[Seabiscuit]

Obviously cheesebeast most pros you have met are insular individuals who don't care about the world around them. We Americans are not so insular. We like to be informed about the world around us. Also as I have said before, variety is the spice of life and we Americans like things a bit spicy.

[hall-o-famer]

This has been done to death. How about something more interesting?

[Seabiscuit]

I agree hall-o-famer. Why don't you post something interesting that people can discuss?

[Seabiscuit]

hall-o-famer, I see you are based at Saratoga. Are you going to Belmont to see War Emblem? Do you have an opinion on War Emblem as a horse or as a Triple Crown prospect? Do you think he can win the Triple Crown?
If you would like to state an opinion on any of these issues best to go to the USA forum and post on the War Emblem thread.
But perhaps your main interest is Asian racing???
Anyway it would be good to have another intelligent American on these forums.

[jrb]

When did the JRA run its first international Japan Cup on turf ? And when did it finally get around to running another on dirt ? Might give you some idea as to where the Japanese place the greater importance.
Your comments re the Arc and the King George give you away as either joking or ignorant.

[Pittsburghphil]

As I said, this argument can only result in bad friends. When someone says that the Arc is a "prep race" .....Houston we have a problem.
You are comparing apples with oranges boys - give it away.

[corkey boy]

I found the All Weather racing tonight not all that bad. There were a number of close finishes which added to the fact they were under lights made the spectacle more attractive. Anyway people who can back winners don't give a rats ring if its on dirt or grass.
I believe piitsburgphil mentioned that European and USA racing were the dominant forces in the world right now. I believe that if Japan decided to attack foreign races on mass that there would be a definate shift in power towards the land of the rising sun.

[corkey boy]

Oh yeah one more thing. Whoever suggested that the Arc and King George were lead up events for the Breeders Cup etc are on drugs !!

[Horny Harry]

Your comments re the Arc and the King George give you away as either joking or ignorant.
I think that " joking' may be the most appropriate interpretation.
It is obvious that Seabiscuit is merely inviting discussion by throwing in some issues which may tweak a few buttons.
I think we all know that the breeders Cup races are world clas events and so is the Arc.
But then so is the Melbourne Cup, Golden Slipper, Kentucky Derby.
They are all put on for the best horses to win. And whoever wins any of them is the best at that event on that day in that particular country under those conditions. Wether on dirt, grass or snow. Weight for age or handicap. Group 1 or maiden class.
It would be impossible really to actually say what the best race in the world is, the best surface, or for that matter who the best horse is. It doesnt even matter who the best horse is unless you are on it with real money and getting over the odds.
What does matter is that you can win money by backing your selections wherever you are in the world and on whatever surface. The money is just as green ( that's a good old yankee saying isnt it Seabiskuts? But of course you gave yourself away as not being a real yankee when you described your getting up in the middle of the night to watch the football.)http://images.usatoday.com/sports/horses/_photos/2002-06-05-inside-waremblem.jpg
[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Horny Harry ]

[hobbes]

But of course you gave yourself away as not being a real yankee when you described your getting up in the middle of the night to watch the football.)
LOL @ HH. yeah what "real yankee" would do that ??

[Mr Crapola]

Nice one HH. I trust that no offence was intended and hope that none was taken by seabiscuit.
What make this bb appealing is not only the girls at the top which make up the letters "ASIAN RACING" but also the free reign others have to post forth their ideas no matter how far removed from our own.
With that in mind seabikkies, why is it that for a large population, you hardly ever see or know of American tourists travelling overseas ?? Probably because when they do holiday - its invariably within the USA. Ok, if they can find everything they want within the States thats fair enough but one can suggest on those grounds that they're insular.
[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mr Crapola ]
[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mr Crapola ]

[Horny Harry]

Maybe its because the rest of us travel where there are no American tourists? Anyway, you know what happens when there are too many yanks in town...ha ha
http://www.triode.net.au/~jacz/3pic.JPG[
http://library.thinkquest.org/2886/feb.htm#MOREHOODIE
http://www.stormfax.com/ghogday.htm
IMG]http://www.triode.net.au/~jacz/10pic.JPG[/IMG]

[Seabiscuit]

I got up in the middle of the night to watch the soccer not the football. Go back and check, boys and girls. I like to bet Horny Harry and will get up to see anything I have money on whether it be soccer cyber betting or horses etc. hall-o-famer has interest in watching the World Cup soccer and says he is a Yank. Do you doubt him?
The fact is I am as much a yankee as Hobbes is an extraterrestial etc etc. It amuses me that people keep trying to guess if I am a real yankee or not but never try to guess if Hobbes is an extraterrestial. I won't tell you what the real answer is yet but I will leave it for you to solve, Hobbes.
Mr Crapola your point is one that cannot possibly be answered. I have no idea if Americans tour overseas on vacation less than Japanese or French etc.

[Horny Harry]

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I dont doubt for a minute that Hall O Famer is a real American bred. He has a nice southern twang and conducts himself like a real American on holidays. Have you ever left the confines of Kentucky Seabikkies? You could have counted how many Japanese tourists you saw on your travels. The answer to the question is not as impossible as you may think.
"The fact is I am as much a yankee as Hobbes is an extraterrestial etc etc. It amuses me that people keep trying to guess if I am a real yankee or not but never try to guess if Hobbes is an extraterrestial. I won't tell you what the real answer is yet but I will leave it for you to solve, Hobbes. "
Hobbes wont have any need to solve anything Seabikkies..we know that Hobbes is not an ET and therefore we know that you are not an American. you just said so yourself. You have provided us with the answer already. Touche'
Your manner suggests more of an inner city mindset rather than that of a country boy from the bluegrass country of the south.
( lol...by the way what time is it in Kentucky when it is 7.30 in Hong Kong?).
[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Horny Harry ]

[Seabiscuit]

Harry, you disappoint me. Didn't you read my last post. At 7:30 in HK the Kentucky time is the same as that "somewhere in the space time continuum".
I am surprised you haven't asked Seabiscuit how he came back from the dead (he raced in the 1930s you know) and how a horse is able to type messages on a bulletin board.

[El Prado]

Someone below said that Montjeu was not a good horse because he was inconsistant, or something to that effect. He was very poorly managed at the end of his career. His last three races he ran injured, so that his owner, Tabor, could bet against him. Tabor made a million pounds on the Arc alone. :p