Johannesburg is a girl/European Arrogance

[Seabiscuit]

What a bunch of upstarts those Europeans are! Not only do they turn up to the races in their fancy suits and ties but now they think they know better than us dumb Americans how to prep a Kentucky Derby horse. You see for over 100 years we dumb Yanks have given our horses several preps on dirt in their 3yo year, gradually working up to the Derby trip of 1m 1/4. But according to Aidan O'Brien, the Champion trainer from Europe, we have had it totally wrong the whole time. He is going to show us how to prep a Derby horse with Johannesburg. Johannesburg's total prep in his 3yo year for the Ky Derby will be one (yes one!!) race. And that race was a 7f grass race outside America. We Americans have been too stupid to think of such an obvious prep for the Derby but after 128 years the Europeans are going to show us how.
I won't be surprised if Johannesburg runs out of puff and struggles to complete the course. When our poorly trained American hacks look him in the eye at the quarter pole and say "Is that all you've got left Johannesburg" I think he will suddenly realise he is running on empty and go backwards like a pricked balloon.
However Johannesburg's problems are not just confined to his prep. I reckon he is overrated at least in terms of his dirt form. Sure he won the Breeders Cup Juvenile on dirt but he ran significantly slower time than the fillies division that day. Couldn't beat the girls. Also he was assisted by a combo of wind and track bias at Belmont that day that helped off pace runners down the outside. Nobody mentions this when they talk about his Champion 2yo exploits. Then first up at his one and only 3yo start Johannesburg was beaten by a filly. The truth is Johannesburg is a girl and not even the best girl going around. I doubt he could even win the Kentucky Oaks if he tried.
I just hope these European upstarts get taught a lesson on Derby day. They have been trying to steal our Breeders Cup Dirt for years but have yet to succeed. How would they like it if we entered a Yankee horse in their Epsom Derby with one 6f dirt prep at Penn National??? I bet they would not even allow it. We are too soft in allowing Joburg to run. The whole thing is an insult to American trainers everywhere.

[hobbes]

Seabiscuit it doesn't seem as though you are inclined to pull any punchs but unfortunately i don't think there are too many european contributors to this forum so you may not get any arguments.
i don't remember american horses doing very well in the HK int'l races each year or going close to beating fantastic light in the world series the last couple of years.
anyway kentucky is just too far away for any horses from these parts to want to travel. maybe prize money not big enough either.

[shapke]

American trainer - isn't that an oxymoron?
Should read "American pharmacist"
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[Horny Harry]

I would say that yankee horses have done very well in the big Hong Kong races this year. Agnes Digital is USA bred and lo and behold...Eishon Preston...yes, yankee bred. They just run under a flag of convenience...much the same as those rusty old freighters that cruise the oceans under any country that cares to do the paperwork for them.
As for the girly horse...you may well be right seabiskuts...but I have the feeling that you wish you were a real yankee that could get your hands dirty in real texas oil ...and not just a half cast colonial imposter. :eek:

[Seabiscuit]

Hobbes, You need to keep up with the pace. The point of my post was that a European horse well performed on turf may not necessarily be able to translate that form to dirt races in America and it was weird of the Europeans to act as if they were preparing for a European turf race rather than do as the Romans do in Rome and prepare the horse for a USA dirt race in the time honoured manner.
You cite Fantastic Light and say Americans have not done too well against him. How many dirt races in the USA has Fantastic Light won, Hobbes??? Answer None - he never raced on dirt in the USA. (Even his turf record in the USA was no better than the rest of his form - 4 starts for 2 wins and 2 unplaced runs.) A better example would be Galileo, Sakhee or Giant's Causeway. All top European grass performers who were defeated on the dirt in the USA.
You then say USA horses have not done too well in HK international races. Grass races too aren't they Hobbes??? American trainers generally don't bother to turn up. The reason being they know their limitations and don't run their dirt horses in turf races. In particular they don't give a horse a dirt prep in the USA and then turn up to run on the grass in another country.
HK International races are low grade in any case and no measuring stick of class (eg your Fantastic Light won in HK soon after a flat and plodding 5th in the BC Turf of 2000)
Horny Harry rightly points out that the Japanese horses are Yanks. Many top Japanese dirt horses are Yanks by birth.

[hobbes]

Seabiscuit no argument with most of your post below as i do consider racing on the grass and the dirt quite different. just adds more to my point about those insular yanks being out of step with the rest of the world.
1) use old imperial measurement system instead of the vastly superior metric system.
2) most of their top racing on artificial dirt surfaces whereas i guess the natural habitat of the horse is more akin to grass which is the predominant racing surface in the rest of the world.
3) electronic clock starts X metres after the start of the race. how weird is that?
finally "axis of evil" -- need i say more??
[ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: hobbes ]

[masun]

1) use old imperial measurement system instead of the vastly superior metric system.
Isn't it odd that bookies in Australia, and the UK too for that matter, still quote odds such as 2/13, 11/4, 4/11 etc. I am amazed that punters can actually figure out what these odds mean.
2) most of their top racing on artificial dirt surfaces whereas i guess the natural habitat of the horse is more akin to grass which is the predominant racing surface in the rest of the world.
And the rest of the world play soccer on grass whereas Yanks have American football on Astroturf.
The World Cup is fought over by teams from all over the world but the World Series by the yanks themselves. :D :D :D :D :D

[Horny Harry]

George Dubbya Bush...Henry Ford ( got to be one of the biggest polluters of our time due to his invention of the motor car)..Charles Manson..chain gangs...slavery...nuclear warheads...texas tea...Hollywood...Cuba...Colonel Sanders ( the chickens friend)...Macdonalds...
America...dont ya just love it?

[simple simon]

Yeah that mongrel Henry Ford. We'd all be far better off without his silly invention.

[masun]

Yeah that mongrel Henry Ford. We'd all be far better off without his silly invention.
Agree! We should all have one of those Segway scooters (http://www.segway.com) instead.

[Horny Harry]

Make sure you visit that Scooter site and check out the video...they look like great fun! the irony of course is that it shows people packing the scooters into their...cars... confused.gif

[Seabiscuit]

Hobbes, most people who describe Yanks as insular are just envious as they are on the outside looking in on where the action is. Remember, envy is a terrible thing.
You say the metric system is "vastly superior". That is an opinionated statement. As you probably come from places which use metric it is also a biased opinionated statement and so of little weight. If you were a judge in a court of law you would not be allowed to pass judgement.
What do you mean by "artificial" dirt surfaces? Since when has dirt been man made? Do you think we have big factories with assembly lines that make dirt for Churchill Downs and Hollywood Park? Grass is more the natural habitat of the horse? Horses have been around for a mighty long time, Hobbes. They were in Ancient Greece, Ancient Egypt and Arabia. They used to pull the pharoah round in his chariot. Hardly places with sweeping grassy plains. Horses just run over whatever is in front of them. I think the reason most countries use grass is more likely historical. You see most racing countries as former British colonies (HK, Australia, New Zealand etc). Being good slaves they do the bidding of their slave master and race on grass as that is what the master does. However the Americans had the guts to stand up for themselves. George Washington kicked those Redcoats off our lands and sent them back to Britannia with their tails between their legs. So we Yanks earned the right to race on the surface of our choosing. And we chose the best surface available - dirt. Note also that the Japanese race about half their races on dirt. They too had their own powerful empire and were not under the yoke of some other empire's rule. They chose dirt of their own free will. So two great races (the Americans and the Japs) had the same idea of racing on dirt - great minds think alike. Note also that dirt tracks can be used when snow is about and have less track bias than grass. You can also run meeting after meeting on the same track for days on end. Grass is too feeble to do this.
There are 2 good reasons why the clock starts X metres (don't you mean yards) after the start of the race.
1. It makes life more interesting. Everyone likes to see fast times posted. It is much more exciting to hear the caller say "they have run the quarter in 21 and 2 and the half in 45 and 1" rather than hear him say "they have run the quarter in 24 and the half in 47 and 3".
2. With dirt tracks the timer is always in a fixed position and the finishing post in a fixed position. This means the distance of the timed portion is always constant for every given distance (6f, 1mile etc). If the starting gates are 1 yard back further than they were the day before you can tell on the replay and factor this into your calcs. But Hobbes, how are races timed on grass tracks? I don't know for sure but I assume the timer is activated by the starting gates opening. The problem with timing races from the barriers Hobbes is that barriers move from day to day. In particular on grass tracks you have the problem of the moveable rail. When the rail is out a long way how do you know that the race is really a 1600m race as stated or not?? Remember the starting gates are placed by the track staff some of whom probably struggled with their algebra and calculus at school. Most of them probably are not too fussed with where the gates are placed. They just set them up and put the beasts in. Do they accurately compensate for the change in distance caused by the movement of the rail out? Some tracks might but others don't. I read in a book once that an Australian punter had checked the distance at a track with the rail out and found it to be out by more than 20 of your vastly superior metres from the distance stated in the form guide. Next time you are watching a race on a grass track with the rail out I want you to ask yourself something. Is this really 1600m? Or is 1608m? Or 1613m? Or 1621m? Or 1634m? Or 1648m? How weird is it to have a timing system where you don't even know what distance is being timed? Studies have been published in the USA showing times are a good predictor of future form. So our brilliant, well thought out timing system actually works.
You see, Hobbes, there is a reason for everything. Americans are not as silly as a superficial glance makes them seem. America did not become the world's greatest superpower for nothing.

[shaved]

You should be in politics 'biscuit.
Might be best if you grab some valium and relax a bit. Smell them roses at Churchill Downs before you're pushing them up...
I see the official North American racing records show the average field size last year was 8.

[Seabiscuit]

Might be best if you grab some valium and relax a bit. Smell them roses at Churchill Downs before you're pushing them up...
Hello, Shaved. As an old man in the twilight of his years I find the above comments referring to my impending death a bit personal and offensive. I argue hard but try to stick to the issues. Just remember you will be old too one day, you young whipper snapper.
And my name is Seabiscuit not 'biscuit. 'biscuit is for my friends.

[shapke]

Biscuit, among the wide-ranging tomfoolery of your posts, I have selected just one subject on which you might be enlightened - since your reading apparently moves beyond Doonesbury only at the point of a gun (another great US tradition).
Dirt racecourses are actuallymade in laboratories and factories. They don't arrive some where and stick a fence in the ground to corral some natural dirt. Dirt tracks are BUILT, using bags of dirt which has been treated chemicals which cause the natural part of the surface to bind together with itself. Otherwise, you would get clouds of dust all the time through your unattractive racing! Of course there is still kickback, but nothing to what you would see if you put down tracks with the dirt from your backyard.
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[masun]

A fairly interesting article on how a dirt track is built:
http://www.horsemenstrack.com/magazine.html

[hobbes]

1) use old imperial measurement system instead of the vastly superior metric system.
"Isn't it odd that bookies in Australia, and the UK too for that matter, still quote odds such as 2/13, 11/4, 4/11 etc. I am amazed that punters can actually figure out what these odds mean."
masun i think in aust at least they have gone metric maybe because a lot of the betting with the bookies has become computerised.
around 15 yrs ago the HKJC switched to metric following a suggestion ( complaint ) of mine. as i remember a horse showing 2.50 could be paying anywhere from 2.50 to 2.99 ( unbelievably now, back in those days they used to round dividends to the nearest cent ( * 10 ) i think ).

[cheesebeast]

Singapore still has a very greedy rounding set-up - they win and place bet in $5 units, and dividends only in round dollars, so win dividend of $8 = $1.60, win dividend of $9 = $1-80.

[Seabiscuit]

Shapke. When did I say that dirt tracks are not treated in some way with chemicals? I never said that. I knew that but did not mention it as it is obvious. The point was that dirt is a naturally occurring substance. It is not man made or artificial. Is it? It naturally occurs, it is collected and then is treated and then you have a racetrack.
The same applies for grass tracks. Naturally occuring substance. But it must be looked after. It must be cut and treated otherwise the grass would be 100 foot high and all over the place like a jungle.
So you cannot argue that dirt tracks are more artificial than grass tracks.
The bit you selected was one small portion of on overall reply to Hobbes. That is that it is wrong to say that grass is a more natural surface for horses to run over. The Brits run on grass and most countries run on grass following their British roots. Also for climate reasons. It snows in USA so grass is out for long periods.
It is interesting that you label my posts tomfoolery. Shaved says I should go into politics implying a lot of what I say is hot air (I guess). In other words both of you throw labels at my posts and put them down. However neither is able to answer the substance of my arguments. Why is that I wonder? It is easier to throw labels around than make intelligent, substantial replies. I have not heard a squeak about the inferiority of USA timing methods since I pointed to a few weaknesses in other parts. Just remember the Aussie punter who found one of his local tracks was out by over 20 metres from the official distance when the rail was out a long way. 20+ metres is the gap between a champ and a plodder in some parts, Shapke.
Read what I write, Shapke. Don't put words into my mouth.

[shapke]

I'm sure we will all be happy to address the substance of your posts - when they have some.
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